still just rendering black teapots

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Rüdiger,
thx for all the cool stuff to look at! I used you exsample and tried that...
Still i only get black renderings (i get an alpha...)
The viewport looks cool!
I use: max2010 64bit (not design) with the hotfix...
win xp64
Do you need any other infos?

kind regards

Olaf

[ruediger]

Hi Olaf,

that's really weird. I verified that all examples I posted worked fine here.

Is everything you try to render black or do you get black renderings only in some cases?

There is the issue we know about, that you can't split you network in a shader graph and merge it at a later point. That caused 3ds Max to forget about some connections. This results in black renderings in some cases.

Kind Regards,
Ruediger

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Ruediger,
its getting stanger and stanger...
I just used just a phong node (made a phenomenon from it) and now it renders the speculars but not the color... The viewport changes the color...
Also "arch and design" or other materials render fine!

Ahoi

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Rüdeiger,
as we have two installations of max2010 i tried it on both. I also asked a friend with a max2010 design instalation and he gets black too! But the viewport is working fine.
Is there something basic that we have not done like useing the wrong folders or so?
Maybe its that we have not installed the artist edition and only RC1?

kind regards

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Rüdiger,
If i remember right i played around with this in the MaxBeta and it worked! Do you use the final release or the beta?

kind regards

Olaf

[hglr123]

I also have the same problem with shaders -
viewing in Viewport is fine, but rendering and in Material Browser is Black.
But it's render fine only reflections (from sample car paint with reflections shader from the forum), but no colors again.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

I just checked with Jeff Patton and he only tried in on the latest max2010beta....
I was sure i got it to work before but now with the final releasee of max it just
does not work anymore! Good thing is i am not alone.... So far two of my friens tried with no luck either!
Time for the second hotfix of max i think.....

kind regards

Olaf

[ruediger]

There is one thing that I saw happening regularly:

While you modify your shader with mental mill and you save it again, 3ds Max tries to reload the shader. In some of these cases it fails somehow, leaving a black sphere in the material editor. This has something to do with the caching of shaders and can cause black materials as you go back and forth between 3ds Max and mental mill. Have you ever tried to restart 3ds Max and use the shaders while the application is still 'fresh' ;) ?

- Ruediger

p.s.: I also don't have a final but one of the beta versions which might have a different behavior.

[hglr123]

Yes, with a fresh restart of max - and nothing yet.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Rüdiger,
yes of course. Basically i just used your exsample and loaded it. It was not even open in MentalMill...
And again this is new, in the Beta Of Max RC3 it worked fine....

kind regards

Olaf

PS:Please install the full max release so we are on even playgrounds! I felt so stupid...

[David Marks]

Hi Olaf,

I have switched here from RC3 (build 104) to the final release (12.0.0.106) and I can't reproduce the problems.

Let's back up a little and make sure we are using exactly the same examples.

First, I tried Ruediger's example " max2010_texture_lookup.xmsl ". Download this here:
http://forum.mentalimages.com/showthread.php?t=5333

In this case, I get a rendered object respecting my UVs and texture maps as described in that thread. My mental ray rendering is matching the hardware shading.

Next, you mentioned making a Phenomenon from a phong node. You'll see that Illumination_phong contains 4 outputs. Even if only one is wired to the Phenomenon result, there is internal confusion which output should be rendered. If you haven't done so, try connecting Illumination_phong Result to one input of a Math_color_add node. Use that result for your Phenomenon output. (See graph layout attached.) As shown, this should render a simple phong color with specular highlight. I'm curious why you aren't getting any color. (I can't reproduce this problem.)

[David Marks]

Also, it would be helpful if you post your .xmsl file here so we can try to get the same results. By some odd chance, maybe something is different between your saved shader and ours.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi David,
hmmm. I uploaded the phong just in case... like you said...
However if i use the exsample you mentioned which i have not touched at all i get no rendering too
I have now tried this with 4 friends on their machines (allways useing the exsample file provided by rüdiger) and it does not work for them either...
Just too bad it works at your end... ;)
Do you use mental ray standalone? Have you installed the hotfix?
Did youinstall from a dvd or the download from subscription center? (With us its all download)

Also

kind regards

Olaf

[chris]

Just tried your phonger material here (on the trial version download of 2010) and it displays and renders fine. Maybe attach your max scene that renders black - perhaps there is something wacky there?

[David Marks]

Olaf,

Sorry for so many questions, but we want to nail this issue.

When you load the material, bitmap paths probably don't match those save with the shader. You'll probably notice two empty bitmap names. Make sure you have a valid texture map and normal map assigned to the shader. If you are using full pathnames, the renderer should find the bitmaps, but it might make sense to add the search path to the configuration section for the paths to external files in 3ds Max.

I'll try your phonger.zip here in the morning (it's a bit late here right now.)

Regarding what I'm running here: I test shaders on several mental ray variations. The Standard Edition will be released with built-in mental ray preview. I first test my shaders there. Next, I run them through my standalone mental ray 3.7.55.x. Last, I load them into 3ds Max 2010 and test them with the mental ray provided with that package.

We're anxious to duplicate your results, so please have patience with us as we try to figure out what's going on. I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of it.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

sorry for causing such a stir...
I need to get this to work too urgently ...
All my friends have tried this too now (and even my max distributor) and it does not work there either. They all have the max distributed via download from the subscription center and not the trial version...
I will install the max from the DVD now!

Lets see if i can get it to work...

kind regards

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

now i installed from the dvd and still the same problem! But i also installed that hotfix...

:confused:

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi there,
enclosed you will find a scene...
a txt file of the mr message window
and a screenshot...

ALSO The viewport representation of the shaders is fine! So the path should be ok too...

kind regards

Olaf

[Victor.Feliz]

Seems that you are using .dds files that are not fine for MentalRay.

Any way I have same problem here in a WinVistax64 OS with a Nvidia 8800 Gt and lastest drivers.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Victor,
the dds files are used in the exsamples from the Mental Images Guy (Rüdiger). I also tried jpg and png files ;)

thx for helping!

You say you have the same problem? Viewport ok but not rendering?

kind regards

Olaf

[Victor.Feliz]

Viewport ok, but material editor and rendering are not working (black)

[zap andersson]

Does this phenomena work?

/Z

[hglr123]

Yes, for me this one finally works!

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hey,
Master Zap is in da house and it works!
But why?

kind regards

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hey there,
ok when i remove some of the inputs it stops working so they need to be exposed out of the phenomena to work...
Actually quite simple... i thought...
So i tried one of the examples posted before copied it and exposed all values....
still no luck...

I dont get the magic behind this...

kind regards

Olaf

[zap andersson]

Hey,
Master Zap is in da house and it works!
But why?

kind regards

Olaf

We don't know exactly, yet. This is very hard to track down, because it seems machine dependent. It seems some default values aren't getting fed in correctly (which is why exposing them as a parameter works)

/Z

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hey everybody,
i felt like stupid as nobody seemed to believe me...
Good to know you are on the case....
Bad because i would realy need this to work...
It worked in RC3 of max for me... Maybe there is a hint...
Also i tried this on 5 computers / installations of max and it worked on none of them.
All very different setups from vista64 to xp64 from 8 core to dual core.... max design and not design...

kind regards

Olaf

[Victor.Feliz]

It works without problems! It really is the only one that I test and work.

Note: I tested several shaders in the other nodes (7950GT) working ok, but not in the main machine (8800GT)

[chris]

I tested that max scene here with the original texture_lookup2D shader from here, the phonger from this thread and with Zaps shader here, both work fine viewport and render (lucky me I guess). Using the Max trial download 32 bit, one machine vista 64 with an 8800GT, the other vista 32 with a 9800GT

[David Marks]

Hey everybody,
i felt like stupid as nobody seemed to believe me...


Hi Olaf,

We absolutely believe you, so please don't take offense to our questions. From a technical side, we need to find a reproducible case. I haven't been able to determine what that is yet, but rest assured that we're looking into it both here and at Autodesk.

David Marks
mental mill QA

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

HI David,
good to hear that, thx.
Hmm with regards to reproduceable cases:
I dont have a problem being able to reproduce this: I actually reproduced this on
7 computers it worked on none of the machines i tried!
xp64 (dual xeon)
vista pro 64bit (quad core)
xp64 (quad core)
the computer of our Autodesk Distributor (dont know the specs...)
weird intel mac booted as a pc...
and several i dont know thespecs as i only asked friends via phone or email to try it...
etc.
AND it used to work on my work computer with RC3 installed!

Looking forward to the Hotfix.... ;)

thx

Olaf

[hglr123]

Olaf,
I think I know how to make them to work - you need to add all inputs to phenomena, and especialy Diffuse Float in Illumination Phong - and you will see the color in Material Browser and in Render :)

This finally work for me for all shaders.

Just remmember - you need to add all inputs to phenomena (they will appear in Material Browser too).

All the best!

P.P. This is shown in Autodesk video example also (with car paint shader) :)
P.P. I attach example xmsl with texture.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi hgrl,
i am sorry to disapoint you... This is not the way this should work.
I used this in a MAX2010 Beta release and it worked withour connecting all inputs. It is only a workaround for the moment..
If you read this thread you will see that MasterZap and others from Autodesk and MentalImages are working on a sollution for the problem.

thx for trying to help ! :)

Olaf

[hglr123]

any news about this?

[David Marks]

any news about this?

Nothing yet. We're still looking into it.

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi David,
i am still here to help...
If you need me to run any test or so let me know...

kind regards

Olaf

[zap andersson]

Ok, this just in:

Try this:

Go to your windows Control Panel => Regional and Language Settings => Regional Options tab, the "number format" button, and make sure the "Decimal Separator" is a dot, not a comma, I.e. that decimals are written 1.0 not 1,0

Does this help?

/Z

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Zap,
this seems to have "solved" the problem...

kind regards

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Zap,
you forgot to mention that you also have to reeboot the computer... Changeing this only works after reeboot!

Hmmm...

thx

Olaf

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Ok but this is not the sollution yet! But great that you found the problem!

kind regards

Olaf

[zap andersson]

Hi Zap,
you forgot to mention that you also have to reeboot the computer... Changeing this only works after reeboot!

Olaf

I didn't reboot, but you do have to make sure to restart max, of course. But maybe some setting can remain forcing a reboot on some situations.

But in general, are things working better now? At least this seemed to be the cause here on my end (running xp 64)

/Z

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Hi Zap,
yes its working so far as i can tell perfect now. I have not tested every shader...
I dont think however that this is the sollution. We are in germany and many people are doing things like excel or accounting (writing an invoice) or so...
I dont mind setting all computers decimal points here at work to "." instead of ","

This should however not affect rendering xmsl at all. Also there is a german version of max (i dont use it!) I think it might be useing comma seperators instead of "." lol

kind regards

Olaf

[zap andersson]

Yes, absolutely; it's a bug, which should be fixed, and this is a workaround for the bug.

That is clear.

/Z

[Olaf Finkbeiner]

Zap you are THE MAN!

I think Rüdiger can close this thread now!

kind regards

Olaf

[ruediger]

A small and yet extremely effective solution :)

Thank you Zap for looking into this, I think a lot of users will be thankful.

- Ruediger